Comments on: Early Divinity in John 5

By: Pauline Donnelly

Pauline Donnelly — Thu, 06 Dec 2012 04:53:23 +0000

This is a really nice, scholarly website! It’s interesting to see the Jewish perspective. As a non-Jew, I would never have recognized the Jewishness of Jesus’s argument/explanation. And I didn’t understand His references to His Father’s “work”. It makes sense that He is talking about sustaining life and healing, which makes more sense of His imitation of the Father. Thank you so much!

By: Daniel

Daniel — Sat, 09 Jun 2012 15:36:15 +0000

I understand Yeshua’s answer as to why he is healing on Shabat is Jewish, it’s quite obvious actually. I think it is even based on Leviticus 12:2 “be holy for I am holy.” It is the concept of imitating God. As the sages say Just as the Holy One, Blessed is He, is Merciful, so be merciful (i’m quoting from memory here so excuse the errors).
What I don’t understand is how you link this to Yeshua’s divinity, or how you see it as yeshua defending his divinity. What I mean is that the concept of imitation is not limited to ‘divine status holders’, all Israel is called to imitate God.
Maybe I just don’t see the conect between the first part of the text and the second one (where he speaks of authority,etc).

By: yeshuain

yeshuain — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 20:18:18 +0000

Judah:

Thank you. Yes, Herbert is a good friend and he accepts scriptural authority but always asks the logical and historical questions as well. He has an inquisitive mind.

Derek

By: Judah Gabriel Himango

Judah Gabriel Himango — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 19:10:34 +0000

Excellent post, Derek! Deep insight. I will keep this one with me. Herbert asked, "Where is the necessity to worship the messiah / son ?" The disciples worshiped him. Paul said every person will bow in submission to Messiah. And Revelation says that all creation will bow before the throne of the Lamb and worship him, give glory to him forever. (Amein!) Jewish Christian apologist Dr. Michael Brown once said that Revelation is a bad place for those who deny Yeshua's divinity. I'd go further and say that the New Testament is a bad place for those that wish to say Jesus should not be worshiped.

By: yeshuain

yeshuain — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 10:46:59 +0000

1) After the resurrection the disciples saw the exalted state of Yeshua and worship was the natural response.

2) After the resurrection the kingdom message of Yeshua was all the more clear and he was revealed as the king, so that his life, death, resurrection, and enthronement became the gospel.

3) It was clear he meant the unique son.

By: herbert

herbert — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 04:59:02 +0000

I have a few questions too.

1) Yeshua was divine in the sense of having the same substance as God. Where is the necessity to worship the messiah / son ? what is the function of worshiping the messiah ? I can understand being thankful but worshipping is a different level altogether.

2) What about the shift in the gospel of Jesus to the gospel about Jesus seen in the NT books ? If that is true then did the deification of Jesus start sometime later ?

3) I also dont understand the reaction – ‘This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.’

The jews did consider themselves to be children of the Holy One right ? if so what was their problem in Yeshua calling himself the son ?

By: yeshuain

yeshuain — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 15:16:00 +0000

Gene:

I am neither saying it is impossible that the gospel was written in layers nor that it is strictly for a Jewish audience.

I am saying the divinity doctrine did not develop late and out of a Greco-Roman way of thinking. I am saying the divinity doctrine in the Fourth Gospel comes from early Messianic Jewish thought.

I am of the opinion that all four gospels are written with a general audience in mind (see Bauckham, The Gospels for All Christians). So, I think explanatory glosses for non-Jewish readers fit with the writer’s purpose to explain to Jews and gentiles.

By: Gene Shlomovich

Gene Shlomovich — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 15:05:06 +0000

“So as the movement for Yeshua became less Jewish and more Roman, the doctrine developed and the Fourth Gospel underwent several edits and additions.”

Well, there are signs in the gospel itself that the audience for which the gospel was tailored was not a Jewish one. Why would, for example, the author need to include the statement “Passover of the Jews” in the text if this wasn’t already self-explanatory? This appears early in the text.

“The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.” (John 2:13)